tavis: good evening. there is growing international concern about how to deal with the gaddafi regime in libya. violence is on the rise. a conversation with an exiled libyan dissident who knows the brutality of the regime firsthand. mansour el-kikhia, a professor at the university of texas. also tonight, a conversation with nba legend kareem abdul- jabbar. he has a new documentary about an all black basketball team in new york that helped blaze the trail for african-american players during the renaissance. we are glad you have joined us with mansour el-kikhia and kareem abdul-jabbar and coming up right now.

>> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference, you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance, working to improve financial literacy and the economic empowerment that comes with it. >> ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] tavis: mansour el-kikhia, fled his homeland in libya in 1980

due to political persecution by muammar gaddafi. he remains a critic from -- he joins us tonight. good to have you on this program. >> thank you for having me. tavis: there are those who thought a couple weeks ago that by now gaddafi would have gone the way of mubarak in egypt. yet it appears if he is going to go, it ain't going to be no time soon. what do you make of that? >> it is normal. this is the -- mubarak would have stayed longer. gaddafi because he will not go that easily. one choice if he leaves peacefully and says my people don't like me. the other choice doesn't believe -- he takes with him 20,000 people. you saw on television he says my

people love me. he still refuses to believe that people have detested him for so many years of oppression. >> what will you happened in the days -- tavis: what will happen in the days ahead? will he dig his heels and more? >> yesterday in the attack from the east the civilians moved west and had to contend with [unintelligible] they used women and children as human shields. they have killed their sons and daughters. the air force is composed of tunisia and the algerians and syrians. because no libyan wants to shoot his own people.

he is not going to go. before he leaves he has to reach a conclusion in his own mind that people don't want him anymore. but once he sees himself as the only person -- i am libya. i am africa. i am the kingif kings. there is megalomania that is difficult to remove. add to the other factor which is more important, that he has been in power for so many years due to two factors. one is that he has developed a cadre of the individuals loyal just to him. he has always made it clear to him he goes they will go as well. therefore it is their duty to assure that he stays in power. this is the revolutionary

committee. the other one is the tribal base. when we look at libya, for the last 40 years just imagine never allowing you to come to a rest. luckily, when the bush administration removed gaddafi and normalize relations with him he made a simple mistake of allowing society to come to unrest. libya looked around and said what is going on? the world is -- we have not moved anywhere. that set off a spark. tavis: this megalomania you reference is not an illness that just struck mr. gaddafi.

if he has been that way he has been that way for quite a some time. if he is a thug he did not just become a thug, and the u.s. was having normalize relations. assess with me the history of the relationship we have had with this man and whether or not there is any hypocrisy in our dealings. >> you are so right. congratulations. thank you. thank you for saying this, because the hypocrisy has been so apparent for seven presidents. beginning with nixon, ford, carter, reagan, the bushes, clinton, and obama. mr. obama is an honorable man. i know he wants to do the right thing, but unfortunately he

cannot because of some much internal opposition to opposing gaddafi. first of all are the oil companies. they want to see gaddafi stay in power. they get what they want and have access to whatever they want. the hypocrisy is we really cannot help libya. we cannot provide a no-fly zone. it just depends where you are. they will lead to it in africa because i hate to say this -- but it is racism. we saw hundreds of thousands of people slaughtered in africa and the europeans did nothing. pinkoson well -- inkosovo we have a no-fly zone.

every single american president has known what this man has done. he has been responsible for massacres and murders in africa. it is not charles taylor who should be in court. it is colonel gaddafi, because he is the one who aren't the troops and trained them. no country in africa has been able to withstand this. uganda is facing problems with fragmentation because gaddafi cited to make himself king of kings. now every single tribal kaine is saying -- tribal king is saying i will not recognize the central government. they know that. europeans know that and yet they will let it live because of

interests. tavis: let me ask whether you think senators like john kerry and john mccain are right about the fact that we ought to do something to help put into place a no-fly zone. >> mr. gates comes up -- i understand the difficulty. we do not want to put a no-fly zone because we don't want the u.s. to be involved in another war. i understand that. give at least the people a chance to shoot down those silly planes gaddafi is using. we did in afghanistan and we were not even there. at least level the playing field. this is not a revolution by rebels. tavis: are you suggesting we

ought to supply the people? >> i am indeed. the argument is these people are rebels. i understand if it is a rebel of 1000 or 2000, but not when 1 million people oppose you. these are not rebels. they are asking for an end to the rule, democratic rule in which they can participate. libya itself has tribes but is not a tribal society because most of the libyans most [unintelligible] important of all, libbin it is muslim but they are not islamic. -- libya is muslim. tavis: let me ask you this final question. that is whether or not -- i want to go back to where we started.

given that there are many who thought gaddafi would be gone by now. he will be strengthening his stronghold. is it possible overtime that he can wear down the opposition? >> no, the opposition will wear him down. my fear is that even though the oil is still coming out of libya the money is going to gaddafi. it is not going to the government of the people who are fighting. four libyans today in has become an issue. something that perhaps americans have said that. give me liberty or give me death. tavis: he is chair of the department of political science at university of texas. his name is professor mansour el-kikhia. we are honored to have you on. i appreciate your time. >> thank you for having me.

tavis: up next, karim abdul- jabbar with a new documentary. stay with us. pleased to welcome the captain. abdul-jabbar back to this program. the basketball hall of famer and six time league mvp. he wrote a project about an all black basketball team that played during the harlem renaissance. this documentary is called "on the shoulders of giants." >> today we cannot even imagine sports without black athletes. nearly 75% of people in the nba are people of color. but the early days of basketball allowed to compete for national championships was zero. >> i find it hard to believe the nba it when it started was segregated.

>> african-american players thought there was always an opportunity for them. >> these guys thought they could make $20 million because they could play. they were just born at the right time. tavis: what are you really trying to say? good to see you. congratulations on a wonderful piece of work. before i get into the pieces you have made another career for yourself as an historian. was this all part of the plan or -->> it was all under the surface. if i had had to have a real job i would have started to do these things when i got out of ucla but the nba was quite a career. i devoted myself to that. this was always something inside of me. finally i am getting a chance to

make it real. tavis: what was inside of you? a love of history? >> just one thing to communicate certain things, i remember the history books i had to deal with coming up in the 1950's. black people were only mentioned with regards to slavery and civil rights. nothing else was in there that depicted what our real experience was all about. i wanted to have an affect on that situation for black kids. they need to know more about what their community has done and how our nation relates to them. is there for them. they have to do some serious digging to find that out. tavis: but you got such a broad range. you told stories of black veterans to professional basketball team. your palate is pretty broad. >> there is a lot of information

out there in the experiences that are just going unknown and unrecognized. i think that is a key there that we have to recognize these stories and bring them into the league of american story. tavis: this story about the harlem renaissance -- tell me what it was about this story that made you want to share it? >> having been -- having come from harlem, i was proud of what they did. back in the 1920's they were a real social issue for the community. the whole idea that they went unrecognized and pave the way for the nba to be what is today. people don't know that, so i had to tell the story and give

today's best of all athletes and idea of what had to happen for them to have the opportunities they have. tavis: how much of this story did you know as a kid? >> i did not know much at all. i knew more about baseball. i wanted to play baseball. i've pitched and played in the outfield but i did not know about bob gates. basketball was not a major sport at that point. by letting kids and the general public know about this i think i am doing a service and giving them an opportunity to understand what this is about. tavis: if i were a captain i would ask what there is for the general population to take away from this? i can see why you would want his brothers in the nba to understand this history, but

what do the rest of us take away? >> just that the whole struggle for equality and civil rights won over every aspect of human endeavor. it was not just about being able to going to a lunch counter and eat. it had to do with every aspect of life coming especially things we take for granted. tavis: tell me about the harlem rens. >> they were great athletes who wanted to play professional basketball but blacks were not allowed to compete in the professional leagues. a caribbean immigrant decided he loved the game and wanted to try his hand and having a professional basketball team. this was harlem's team. in a documentary he talks about the fact that harlem did not have a professional baseball or football team but they did have

a professional basketball team. if tavis: i think a lot of people watching and they think of a professional black basketball team they think of the harlem group trotters -- harlem globetrotters. >> it is very confusing because the harlem globetrotters are from chicago. [laughter] that is the first thing you have to get clear. the harlem rens were from harlem. the harlem globetrotters had a different approach to things. their owner was abe, and he wanted to take the approach his team was not going to be threatening. they cater more to a morant negative image of black americans. tavis: you mean more clownish? >> some of it was kind of

annoying. they would be playing a basketball game and then would start shooting dice. the greeting. rens were hard-core warriors on the court. they played very serious games. they were not out there to entertain anybody. tavis: what opportunities did they have even though they could not play in the nba? what interaction did they have with the best of the white players? >> they would play the best of the per national teams in barnstorming games. those games were normally lucrative financially because the white community wanted to see the black guys loose and they did not lose. [laughter] it started a rival rate and with the best of the white teams were the original celtics.

they played them a lot. they would play them in a lot of different areas. it was always an exhibition game. coaching staffs -- coaches around the country would bring their coaching staff to see the rens play to have an idea of what the game was all about because the passing game was so dynamic and effective. my college coach played against them for a team in indianapolis. the rens use to beat them and the coach said they were the best professional team he ever saw. tavis: passing was one of the things you said a moment ago. what were these guys so good at the end that the white players wanted to check out their style? >> there passing, they kept

moving and kept the ball moving. that is what got them open shots. that was one aspect of it. they played a very suffocating defense. everybody played close to their manned and kept everyone from traveling. they learn how to play the passing lane. tavis: it sounds like kareem and magic on the lakers. >> i am sure the coach put a lot into his coaching. tavis: this was not just a great black team but they were black- owned. at was a major deal. we have one black owner in the nba with the bobcats. but they were blacked-owned back when. >> that was such a great example for black entrepreneurs. that the owner had a vision for

them and was able to execute it financially and managed the team and dealt with the financial aspects of on a professional basketball team. look at what happened with marcus garvey. the mismanagement of what he was trying to do not being able to deal with the economics competently. it all fell apart. the rens kept playing and the owner only gave up when the nba refused to let his team into the nba. tavis: what ultimately happened today rens? >> they disbanded in 1948 and two years later the nba decided it would integrate. there were three guys. sweetwater, charles cooper and earl lloyd. they were in the nba autumn of

1950. one was drafted coming another one was signed. sweetwater's contract was signed to the nba from the globetrotters. earl lloyd was chosen by the pistons. we don't know which one played the first. [laughter] >> cooper was drafted earlier in the year, but those three guys are the ones that were the trail blazers. tavis: what is the nba doing to make this available to all the players? we just had a big all-star week in town and you premiered this film. tell me about the film and whether anything is happening that can educate these players. >> we are in contact with the nba offices. they see this as a good teaching moment, being able to show the young players how we got to this point.

because most black kids think basketball has always been there for them to have this opportunity. it was not like that. these people, especially on the rens, were the ones that made it possible for america to accept black americans as basketball players. tavis: how funny is it to you to think at one point the nba was all white? people cannot even imagine that these days. >> it is hard to conceive now especially looking back in recent history. let's go back when the lakers for started. we show a picture of them. it was an all white team. tavis: hard to imagine. i'm glad they changed that. "on the shoulders of giants" brought to us by kareem abdul- jabbar. he made a whole new life for us

as an historian. good to have you on. great work. you can watch it on video on demand for the next few months and on dvd. congratulations again. that is our show for tonight. until then, good night. thanks for watching. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org tavis: award winning author, mark richard. that is next time. we will see you then. >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference, you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance,

working to improve financial literacy and the economic empowerment that comes with it. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from few words like you. thank you. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- >> be more,